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>>To not feel cheated that you haven't had a way or reason to train TM for your ENTIRE life (ig) guild wise,
Bards had access to TM spells for over five years.
The teeth lands a solid (5/23) hit that pokes the teeth into Turul's rear end (more embarrassing than painful!).
TEVESHSZAT
DAENAR-DR
Re: Soul ripped out of bards
01/17/2013 06:46 PM CST
>> Bards had access to TM spells for over five years.
This might even go back as far as Pyre. Or as far as they were able to use spell scrolls?
This might even go back as far as Pyre. Or as far as they were able to use spell scrolls?
ILLIENA
Re: Soul ripped out of bards
01/17/2013 06:52 PM CST
> This might even go back as far as Pyre.
Pyre only gained TM in '08.
Pyre only gained TM in '08.
BLCKGRD4
Re: Soul ripped out of bards
01/17/2013 07:15 PM CST
>Linett
so, I briefly read your initial post and i've skipped over any comments made, so that aside, your last post just sounds to me like you're causing yourself undo grief over a simple mechanics change. While you might believe that this new change is overwhelming, it really won't take you THAT long to figure out how to use your guilds abilities. You might type in "sing such and such enchante" from time to time by mistake, but after a short while it really won't happen.
TM is another thing all together though, and being MU's you've had a lot of time to cover the TM gap. Not training it was a choice, whether you think so or not. Just because you did not deem it important enough to train at the time, for whatever reason, does not make a woe is me argument valid. Just get out there and start training it. Get out there today even, start learning! It might be inconvenient, but it's not impossible and just takes patience, persistence, and might just be a reason to train lower skilled weapons or armor types in the process.
I could be naive in this as i've rarely played any type of character outside of Dano and my Empath Stewart, and both are very low skilled/circle characters and I've played DR for just as long as you have (since 96/97).
The only analogy I suppose I could relate to is if backstab became and ambush maneuver for thieves and only while a specific Khri was active. I'd probably type in just 'backstab' very often at first and get the "does not compute" type of message, but after awhile I would be ensuring I had the khri up and then putting in "ambush backstab" or whatever and it would no longer be a problem.
I'm sure you'll correct me and tell me if I'm not understanding your problem with this change, but that's how I read your last post anyways.
Blackguard Danoryiel
"Sogan udazama umbunor fau arrazoi inishatu seiremisai. (Only the fallen have nothing to despair)"
so, I briefly read your initial post and i've skipped over any comments made, so that aside, your last post just sounds to me like you're causing yourself undo grief over a simple mechanics change. While you might believe that this new change is overwhelming, it really won't take you THAT long to figure out how to use your guilds abilities. You might type in "sing such and such enchante" from time to time by mistake, but after a short while it really won't happen.
TM is another thing all together though, and being MU's you've had a lot of time to cover the TM gap. Not training it was a choice, whether you think so or not. Just because you did not deem it important enough to train at the time, for whatever reason, does not make a woe is me argument valid. Just get out there and start training it. Get out there today even, start learning! It might be inconvenient, but it's not impossible and just takes patience, persistence, and might just be a reason to train lower skilled weapons or armor types in the process.
I could be naive in this as i've rarely played any type of character outside of Dano and my Empath Stewart, and both are very low skilled/circle characters and I've played DR for just as long as you have (since 96/97).
The only analogy I suppose I could relate to is if backstab became and ambush maneuver for thieves and only while a specific Khri was active. I'd probably type in just 'backstab' very often at first and get the "does not compute" type of message, but after awhile I would be ensuring I had the khri up and then putting in "ambush backstab" or whatever and it would no longer be a problem.
I'm sure you'll correct me and tell me if I'm not understanding your problem with this change, but that's how I read your last post anyways.
Blackguard Danoryiel
"Sogan udazama umbunor fau arrazoi inishatu seiremisai. (Only the fallen have nothing to despair)"
HAMBARD
Re: Soul ripped out of bards
01/17/2013 07:16 PM CST
I'm not sure the... well, let's call it "starkness" of starting a conversation with "Soul ripped out of bards" is much of an attempt at honest discourse.
Release is in like, 2 days, so it's a bit late even with how long test was available for Prime for the level of histrionics (haha, I know, we're bards...) being displayed.
What does a thread like this actually hope to accomplish?
And again, IC-wise, this is very similar to something that already happened to the guild so, TM has been available for years, lore is becoming an even more useful, diverse skillset. Claiming bards have been sort of left out of Dev, then being upset at the very things being done to dovetail bards into the dev systems so that new dev can take place is sort of head spinning.
I've played one for years too (Prime and Plat) and I've found it took me about one week to get a hang of new mechanics, two to forget the old ways and really dig into the fun of having options and flexibility.
Player of Ryken
---
"Life expectancy would grow by leaps and bounds if green vegetables smelled as good as bacon." ~ Doug Larson
AIM - RykenDR
Release is in like, 2 days, so it's a bit late even with how long test was available for Prime for the level of histrionics (haha, I know, we're bards...) being displayed.
What does a thread like this actually hope to accomplish?
And again, IC-wise, this is very similar to something that already happened to the guild so, TM has been available for years, lore is becoming an even more useful, diverse skillset. Claiming bards have been sort of left out of Dev, then being upset at the very things being done to dovetail bards into the dev systems so that new dev can take place is sort of head spinning.
I've played one for years too (Prime and Plat) and I've found it took me about one week to get a hang of new mechanics, two to forget the old ways and really dig into the fun of having options and flexibility.
Player of Ryken
---
"Life expectancy would grow by leaps and bounds if green vegetables smelled as good as bacon." ~ Doug Larson
AIM - RykenDR
DR-RAESH
Re: Soul ripped out of bards
01/17/2013 08:27 PM CST
>>Hell, I'll be shocked if the more long-use ritual foci for Bards aren't instruments.
I was actually discussing that with Armifer yesterday and it's actually mechanically... very problematic. It doesn't mean it won't happen, but it won't happen short term for sure.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
I was actually discussing that with Armifer yesterday and it's actually mechanically... very problematic. It doesn't mean it won't happen, but it won't happen short term for sure.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
DR-RAESH
Re: Soul ripped out of bards
01/17/2013 08:34 PM CST
I'm open to a different prep messaging. I'll look into it.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
VOLCANUS
Re: Soul ripped out of bards
01/17/2013 08:48 PM CST
>> I was actually discussing that with Armifer yesterday and it's actually mechanically... very problematic.
For sake of flavor, could we have some "broken" instruments put into play. If it works out later then they can be upgraded by a merchant or quest into a playable instrument. If the former, then can we name them? I have a sudden hankering for an ocarina named "the screecher".
For sake of flavor, could we have some "broken" instruments put into play. If it works out later then they can be upgraded by a merchant or quest into a playable instrument. If the former, then can we name them? I have a sudden hankering for an ocarina named "the screecher".
YAMCER
Re: Soul ripped out of bards
01/17/2013 08:49 PM CST
| >>Hell, I'll be shocked if the more long-use ritual foci for Bards aren't instruments. |
| I was actually discussing that with Armifer yesterday and it's actually mechanically... very problematic. It doesn't mean it won't happen, but it won't happen short term for sure. |
Could they be instrument related items like: bows, picks, "tipper", ect?
Yamcer
"You know, while I understand the importance of seeing the (personal) validity in other's arguments, it's impossible for me to believe fully that others are correct. If their argument was correct, I'd change mine." - My GF
LHFERREE1
Re: Soul ripped out of bards
01/17/2013 08:57 PM CST
>>Could they be instrument related items like: bows, picks, "tipper", ect?
Seconded. I was typing this up as I was scrolling down to see this reply.
~~
Lupdels
Seconded. I was typing this up as I was scrolling down to see this reply.
~~
Lupdels
BEVERAGEK
Re: Soul ripped out of bards
01/17/2013 09:16 PM CST
>>I'm open to a different prep messaging. I'll look into it.
Just for the cyclics? Cause I love the PREP messaging of all of the regular castable spells -- it just doesn't quite fit for the song-like cyclic spells.
If so, I totally <3 you.
~ Leilond
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/ss1shadow/Leilond_Progression.jpg
Just for the cyclics? Cause I love the PREP messaging of all of the regular castable spells -- it just doesn't quite fit for the song-like cyclic spells.
If so, I totally <3 you.
~ Leilond
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/ss1shadow/Leilond_Progression.jpg
ELRIIC
Re: Soul ripped out of bards
01/17/2013 10:25 PM CST
<<Release is in like, 2 days, so it's a bit late even with how long test was available for Prime for the level of histrionics (haha, I know, we're bards...) being displayed.
For my part I just returned to Dragonrealms in October. I didn't find out about 3.0 until a month later so you could argue yeah I had a month to say something but I was busy trying to figure out which end you stuck into the monsters. Fully aware that its a little late to start a converation or to expect a change.
It sounds like Raesh is looking at a messaging change. If we didn't say anything you guys wouldn't have that, so while I might be late, I don't think it was pointless.
DR-SOCHARIS
Re: Soul ripped out of bards
01/18/2013 03:05 AM CST
I want to toss in that I agree that Bards are losing some of what used to make them special snowflakes, but some of that stuff made it really, really hard to develop for them. So hard that the last 5 years, you've gotten two spells and one remarkably broken scream. Enchantes were tied into the old magic system just enough that even if we WANTED to keep them the way they used to be, every single one needed rewriting anyway, and there's no way that that was going happen for two systems.
Bards have been mages for years - They use mana, have a mana type, and can cast other guild's spells. It was just the enchante system that was different, and as has been stated numerous times in this thread, most of those enchantes were considered useless. It was nice that there was some special syntax to make it easy for you to start your spells (which is really all enchantes WERE, was spells with an enormous messaging requirement and a confusingly different set of technical rules), and you got the additional complexity of needing different instruments and whatnot, but you were absolutely using mana.
The real change here, and I don't deny that it's happening, is that the uniqueness of bards is going away in favor of making them first-class citizens of the magical (And therefore developmental) world. Yes, this means that some of the fluffy things you used to have (though hardly all!) are gone, but it also means that you'll see actual development for your primary abilities that's both meaningful and interesting.
Bards still have very strong RP niches - Once the things Raesh and I are planning become more reasonable to talk about, I think you'll be happy to find that there are some very good opportunities on the horizon, and many of your abilities (song scrolls, playacting, BLUFF (such as it is), voice throwing, WHISTLEs, PRACTICE, etc) are still there.
The only thing going away is that when you magic, you always did it with songs. Now, when you magic, you have to begin by preparing the spell you're about to cast, and for some of those, as they pulse you still use your voice to make it do magic things.
That's not very different.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
Bards have been mages for years - They use mana, have a mana type, and can cast other guild's spells. It was just the enchante system that was different, and as has been stated numerous times in this thread, most of those enchantes were considered useless. It was nice that there was some special syntax to make it easy for you to start your spells (which is really all enchantes WERE, was spells with an enormous messaging requirement and a confusingly different set of technical rules), and you got the additional complexity of needing different instruments and whatnot, but you were absolutely using mana.
The real change here, and I don't deny that it's happening, is that the uniqueness of bards is going away in favor of making them first-class citizens of the magical (And therefore developmental) world. Yes, this means that some of the fluffy things you used to have (though hardly all!) are gone, but it also means that you'll see actual development for your primary abilities that's both meaningful and interesting.
Bards still have very strong RP niches - Once the things Raesh and I are planning become more reasonable to talk about, I think you'll be happy to find that there are some very good opportunities on the horizon, and many of your abilities (song scrolls, playacting, BLUFF (such as it is), voice throwing, WHISTLEs, PRACTICE, etc) are still there.
The only thing going away is that when you magic, you always did it with songs. Now, when you magic, you have to begin by preparing the spell you're about to cast, and for some of those, as they pulse you still use your voice to make it do magic things.
That's not very different.
--
"The ninety and nine are with dreams, content but the hope of the world made new, is the hundredth man who is grimly bent on making those dreams come true." -E.A.P.
DR-RAESH
Re: Soul ripped out of bards
01/18/2013 04:04 AM CST
>>Just for the cyclics? Cause I love the PREP messaging of all of the regular castable spells -- it just doesn't quite fit for the song-like cyclic spells.
And there's the rub.
I think they all end up having to use the same prep message, and I can't change the cyclic messasges to reflect if you're using "so and so starts to chant" or "so and so waggles his ears".
One thing I have been doing (and plan to keep doing) is replacing the gesture message in many of the songs. A lot of the spells outside of elemental invocations do not have final messaging in place.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
And there's the rub.
I think they all end up having to use the same prep message, and I can't change the cyclic messasges to reflect if you're using "so and so starts to chant" or "so and so waggles his ears".
One thing I have been doing (and plan to keep doing) is replacing the gesture message in many of the songs. A lot of the spells outside of elemental invocations do not have final messaging in place.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
ELRIIC
Re: Soul ripped out of bards
01/18/2013 05:14 AM CST
Socharis and Raesh thank you for your posts. Its good for the bards to know that you guys recognize that the happy little snowflakes have been melted and that you intend to make that better soon.
DR-RAESH
Re: Soul ripped out of bards
01/18/2013 06:52 AM CST
Yeah, I intend to make ice cubes for my girly drinks.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
BEVERAGEK
Re: Soul ripped out of bards
01/18/2013 08:36 AM CST
>>And there's the rub.
>>I think they all end up having to use the same prep message
Ahh, that would make things a bit more difficult. Might I suggest changing the PREP messaging to be more of an internal process, rather than tracing glyphs and making sounds?
Something akin to...
FIRST PERSON: You mentally weave and blend the threads of mana nearby to form the streams of the <Spell Name> spell.
THIRD PERSON: <Bard Name>'s focus shifts suddenly.
~ Leilond
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/ss1shadow/Leilond_Progression.jpg
>>I think they all end up having to use the same prep message
Ahh, that would make things a bit more difficult. Might I suggest changing the PREP messaging to be more of an internal process, rather than tracing glyphs and making sounds?
Something akin to...
FIRST PERSON: You mentally weave and blend the threads of mana nearby to form the streams of the <Spell Name> spell.
THIRD PERSON: <Bard Name>'s focus shifts suddenly.
~ Leilond
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/ss1shadow/Leilond_Progression.jpg
ILLIENA
Re: Soul ripped out of bards
01/18/2013 08:45 AM CST
> THIRD PERSON: <Bard Name>'s focus shifts suddenly.
It needs to make noise if it's a default prep. Silent preps require the feat of the same name.
It needs to make noise if it's a default prep. Silent preps require the feat of the same name.
BEVERAGEK
Re: Soul ripped out of bards
01/18/2013 08:47 AM CST
>>It needs to make noise if it's a default prep. Silent preps require the feat of the same name.
Huh? Empaths enter into a meditative thing whenever they prep with no noises or traces.
~ Leilond
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/ss1shadow/Leilond_Progression.jpg
Huh? Empaths enter into a meditative thing whenever they prep with no noises or traces.
~ Leilond
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/ss1shadow/Leilond_Progression.jpg
BEVERAGEK
Re: Soul ripped out of bards
01/18/2013 08:48 AM CST
To elaborate, that is just the prepare message. People would still be able to get the, "You recognize that Soandso is preparring the XXXX spell." prompt right below that prepare message, unless you successfully pass the silent prepare check and have that option set.
~ Leilond
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/ss1shadow/Leilond_Progression.jpg
~ Leilond
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/ss1shadow/Leilond_Progression.jpg
ILLIENA
Re: Soul ripped out of bards
01/18/2013 08:56 AM CST
Huh, you're right. Here's how the empath prep is "heard" from hiding:
>You see a sweeping movement out of the corner of your eye.
>You're able to decipher telltale signs of the Vitality Healing spell.
>You see a sweeping movement out of the corner of your eye.
>You're able to decipher telltale signs of the Vitality Healing spell.
ALEPH-ONE
Re: Soul ripped out of bards
01/18/2013 04:06 PM CST
>>I'm open to a different prep messaging. I'll look into it.
For what it's worth, I really like the "arcane sigil" prepping, and I personally don't want it to change.
It would be nice if there were options for those who want a more musical prep though. Maybe people could toggle between them? I think that option would be a HUGE help and appreciated among all the guilds actually.
Some possible options:
BARD chants a few sharp notes.
BARD whispers a few words.
BARD begins chanting with an even cadence.
If there were a toggle too, there could be options for more emotional preps, like a "chirpy, cheerful melody" (which couldn't be used as a general prep because it wouldn't work for everyone).
-- Player of Eyuve
For what it's worth, I really like the "arcane sigil" prepping, and I personally don't want it to change.
It would be nice if there were options for those who want a more musical prep though. Maybe people could toggle between them? I think that option would be a HUGE help and appreciated among all the guilds actually.
Some possible options:
BARD chants a few sharp notes.
BARD whispers a few words.
BARD begins chanting with an even cadence.
If there were a toggle too, there could be options for more emotional preps, like a "chirpy, cheerful melody" (which couldn't be used as a general prep because it wouldn't work for everyone).
-- Player of Eyuve
BEVERAGEK
Re: Soul ripped out of bards
01/18/2013 04:22 PM CST
>>I really like the "arcane sigil" prepping
I do too, I just don't think it makes sense to make arcane sigils for what is in effect(and messaging), a song.
Just imagine someone making a series of complex gestures in the air, and then singing a song. It just... makes no logical sense to me, at least :P
For all the regular castable spells? Absolutely makes sense and has a +10 cool factor. For the cyclics? -10 for logic breach. Which is why I think we need a compromise which works for both.
I don't think it would be fair to give Bards a toggle but no one else toggles.
~ Leilond
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/ss1shadow/Leilond_Progression.jpg
I do too, I just don't think it makes sense to make arcane sigils for what is in effect(and messaging), a song.
Just imagine someone making a series of complex gestures in the air, and then singing a song. It just... makes no logical sense to me, at least :P
For all the regular castable spells? Absolutely makes sense and has a +10 cool factor. For the cyclics? -10 for logic breach. Which is why I think we need a compromise which works for both.
I don't think it would be fair to give Bards a toggle but no one else toggles.
~ Leilond
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h307/ss1shadow/Leilond_Progression.jpg
HAMBARD
Re: Soul ripped out of bards
01/18/2013 04:58 PM CST
>>I don't think it was pointless.
Never said it was, I said it was being needlessly dramatic instead of just straightforward and reasoned. I think it's a decent idea but "starting a conversation" is a bit different than the "woe is me, everything about being a bard is being ripped out..."
Player of Ryken
---
"Life expectancy would grow by leaps and bounds if green vegetables smelled as good as bacon." ~ Doug Larson
AIM - RykenDR
Never said it was, I said it was being needlessly dramatic instead of just straightforward and reasoned. I think it's a decent idea but "starting a conversation" is a bit different than the "woe is me, everything about being a bard is being ripped out..."
Player of Ryken
---
"Life expectancy would grow by leaps and bounds if green vegetables smelled as good as bacon." ~ Doug Larson
AIM - RykenDR
SHADOWCHIEF3
Re: Soul ripped out of bards
01/18/2013 05:56 PM CST
> Just imagine someone making a series of complex gestures in the air, and then singing a song. It just... makes no logical sense to me, at least :P
YMCA...youtube it.
It is now how I'm going to envision Leilond in game.
YMCA...youtube it.
It is now how I'm going to envision Leilond in game.
DIMINISHEDANGEL
Re: Soul ripped out of bards
01/18/2013 07:01 PM CST
>>It is now how I'm going to envision Leilond in game.
It's how I envision the recruitment speech now too.
It's fun to stay with the B-A-R-D!
It's how I envision the recruitment speech now too.
It's fun to stay with the B-A-R-D!
ALEPH-ONE
Re: Soul ripped out of bards
01/18/2013 07:12 PM CST
>>I do too, I just don't think it makes sense to make arcane sigils for what is in effect(and messaging), a song.
Yes, but don't you PREP the spell first, and not start singing until the cast? I could see someone tracing out a pattern for the magic before they start singing.
That said if there's a change to a more chanty prep, it would make sense too.
>>I don't think it would be fair to give Bards a toggle but no one else toggles.
Sorry I wasn't clear. I was suggesting a toggle for everyone.
-- Player of Eyuve
Yes, but don't you PREP the spell first, and not start singing until the cast? I could see someone tracing out a pattern for the magic before they start singing.
That said if there's a change to a more chanty prep, it would make sense too.
>>I don't think it would be fair to give Bards a toggle but no one else toggles.
Sorry I wasn't clear. I was suggesting a toggle for everyone.
-- Player of Eyuve
DR-RAESH
Re: Soul ripped out of bards
01/19/2013 08:11 AM CST
My current intention is to retain the sigil prep messaging and use an alternate message when prepping the cyclics.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
ELRIIC
Re: Soul ripped out of bards
01/19/2013 10:57 AM CST
<<My current intention is to retain the sigil prep messaging and use an alternate message when prepping the cyclics.
Disagree with this but I'm glad you're looking at it overall. It still gives bards a 'mage' feel to them.
That being said, would you consider adding a purchasable alternate prep in that spot in Throne City where the other mages could choose them? Makes B.A.R.D. happy and everyone else happy too.
As a complete aside Leilond, you seriously made me lol in real life dude. I can't get the damned YMCA song out of my head now. Damn you sir. :)
<<"earning too little skinning experience for a day or so isn't nearly as bad as having a spell that breaks your wings."
DR-RAESH
Re: Soul ripped out of bards
01/19/2013 11:04 AM CST
>>Disagree with this but I'm glad you're looking at it overall. It still gives bards a 'mage' feel to them.
The non cyclics are largely non-song based. That's embedded into their messaging to a far stronger degree than any prep message.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
The non cyclics are largely non-song based. That's embedded into their messaging to a far stronger degree than any prep message.
-Raesh
"Ever notice that B.A.'s flavor text swells in direct proportion to how much one of our characters is getting screwed?" - Brian Van Hoose
HAMBARD
Re: Soul ripped out of bards
01/19/2013 12:03 PM CST
>>It still gives bards a 'mage' feel to them.
You realize that bards are in fact mages, right? It's not something that should be completely avoided.
Player of Ryken
---
"Life expectancy would grow by leaps and bounds if green vegetables smelled as good as bacon." ~ Doug Larson
AIM - RykenDR
You realize that bards are in fact mages, right? It's not something that should be completely avoided.
Player of Ryken
---
"Life expectancy would grow by leaps and bounds if green vegetables smelled as good as bacon." ~ Doug Larson
AIM - RykenDR
