I'm a girl. My icon is the same as it ever was.


This thread only half delivers. I require more goats to sacrifice. Carry on.

___________________________
Arilana stifles a giggle and pokes herself in the stomach. A belch like none you have ever heard, echoes across the land!
Arilana glances around the room and says, "Someone pull my finger."

Melvosis is the man you shut your mouth you report-baiting piece of garbage.


-Strk

Drudging other people through the mud doesn't make you look any better Stolas.

And using ridiculous generalities only stresses the fact that people shouldn't even bother with you.


-Coralin

Coralin gestures at an Adan'f blood warrior.
An instant rush of black and blue fire explodes into being, consuming Coralin's outstretched limbs and turning them into ash!

I KNEW RUMET BACK WHEN HE WAS A BABY.


We were in the same playgroup on Mondays and Thursdays when our moms would go shopping and get there hair done.

Once he stole my Chatty Cathy doll, so I had to tear out a big chunk of his hair. After that, I wasn't allowed to go to playgroup anymore.


___________________________
Arilana stifles a giggle and pokes herself in the stomach. A belch like none you have ever heard, echoes across the land!
Arilana glances around the room and says, "Someone pull my finger."

Man, I spend a couple days moving into a new apartment and it's liek, dramabomb explosion in the MM folder.

>> But like I said Caelumia has a little circle jerk of friends who routinely come to her aid when she talks trash.

I'd be genuinely interested in knowing which people you're referring to. Most of the people posting in response to you are people I have never even spoken to, or in Serc and Prissie's case, people that I'm pretty sure don't even like me.

Has it occured to you that perhaps the fault here lies with you and not everyone else?

>> Your little group just needs to sit in the Town Green and convince each other what great roleplayers and evil plotters ya'll are.

This just makes me giggle.

I do consider myself a good roleplayer. Not great and certainly far from perfect, but good, yes.

Evil plotter, though? No, neither ICly nor OOCly. Caelumia is not "evil" plain and simple. That is perhaps one of your bigger misunderstandings regarding my character, and perhaps one of your greater failings as a roleplayer as well. I'm not saying that just to take a personal jab at you, either. These are simply my observations, and they just as easily apply to a multitude of other people as they do to you, Stolas.

No one really thinks of themselves as evil. People don't do malicious things just because they're evil people. They do malicious things because they're misguided, deluded, weak (in heart, spirit, or mind), or they simply don't know any better.

This means the stereotype of evil does not exist either. When you craft a character with the goal in mind that you want someone that does evil things and acts evil for the sake of being evil, what you end up with is a ridiculous caricature of a villain that is neither realistic nor engaging as a character, whether or not you come up with feasible excuses for their behavior later on.

That is what you and a lot of the so-called "evil" characters of DR have done. In the process of creating a black to match the white, all you've managed to do is create a bunch of flat characters that sit around having evil tea parties while wringing their hands and cackling about how bad they all are. The whole "quest for knowledge" spiel I hear people regurgitate all the time just feels tacked on and superfluous. Hey, you want to play a bad guy that will drown kittens and drop-kick puppies in return for forbidden knowledge and ancient power, that's great. But what else is there to your character? Can you even tell me?

Perhaps I missed something along the way, or perhaps I simply don't "get" it. I'm perfectly willing to accept that this is a personal failing on my part. Until I see something engaging coming out of those characters, though, or my perspective shifts drastically, I'm perfectly content to simply avoid them, just as I've avoided Stolas and plenty of others.

The best villains in my opinion are the ambiguous ones. They keep people wondering and they make people uneasy because their motivations or goals are either unclear or they might not really seem all that bad. They might make people question whether the ends will justify the means. In short, they create conflict, not just externally with other people but within themselves and their circles of friends.

Caelumia doesn't do bad things sometimes because she's "evil" though. She does bad things because she feels there's some kind of positive gain to be had for someone, and not always just herself. After all, she does good things, too. Lots of good, generous, and unquestionably selfless things. These simply don't get the same attention that the bad things do. And that's fine. I wouldn't play the sort of character I do if I had a problem with them (and myself) being perceived poorly. In fact, I rather enjoy playing a character that is a source of conflict, because conflict tends to lead to the best and most fun roleplay. When I want a break from that I just... play another character. One of the ones that no one knows about. It can be quite nice just slipping by unnoticed or even being liked by people who otherwise insist they despise you. But I digress.

There are several very good reasons Caelumia still has not learned or used Sever Thread even once. There are several very good reasons Caelumia is not "pro-sorcery" (as though the issue was that simple) at this point in time. "Getting caught" is a very minor factor on both lists. And to be completely honest, I don't much care what your "sources" are telling you about her. I'm telling you right now that what you're claiming as "fact" isn't the case. Your source is, quite simply, either ignorant about my character, mistaken about what they said or flat-out lying. As you are the one privy to their identity and potential motivations, I will let you decide which is true.

I guess I could lay out her reasons for doing what she does right now, but I'm betting a good chunk of people would think it stupid and everyone else just wouldn't give a damn. So I'll just repeat for posterities' sake:

>> let me assure you that any rumors of her association with Sorcery or working for the Children have been greatly exaggerated.

As always, I extend my invitation to anyone that wishes to discuss the matter (or any recent events) at length to either IM me, email me, or drop into my IRC room. Finding my character in-game is an option as well, but the sort of reaction you'll get out of her will depend on everything from your character's species and mannerisms to what phase Xibar happens to be in at the time. Please don't take being snubbed or insulted ICly as a sign that I'm not willing to chat about it, though.

>> Caelumia did, and at the time, it really put me off. I'd say that Cael's unapologetic nastiness and getting thumped repeatedly by Xelten were the defining experiences of circles 0-5.

As much as my character has changed and evolved over the years (especially from my original conception of her), at least that's one facet of the character that has never really changed. Didn't matter if they were circle 5 or 50. Still doesn't, really, though "survival" has jumped up several places on the list of priorities these days, so she's slightly more likely to back down in the face of certain death.

Plus I feel like a jackass more often than not being on the circle 50 end instead of the circle 5ish end for a change. I have to laugh a little every time someone refers to Cael as "big" or "high circle" - she's really not. Somewhere along the way, though, she turned from "newbie mouthing off" into "high level throwing their weight around" in many peoples' eyes. I guess that distinction still throws me off a bit. Especially since most people in the game can kill her.

I will say this much, though. When I saw Prissie rolling through back in "the day," I thought, "Man, that is a stupid goddamn name. What was she thinking?"

Now when I see Prissie rolling through, I still think, "Man, that is a stupid goddamn name. What was he thinking?"

Some things change, some things stay the same. :)

---

Rev. Reene

"Who provides the opportunity to cultivate patience? Not our friends. Our enemies give us the most crucial chances to grow."
- Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th Dalai Lama

>generally being disruptive when he wanted to be

Okay, I'm curious, since you must have a much better memory than me. Please describe even ONE time when Kougen was "being disruptive". I was never a disruptive player, even before I actually started roleplaying with Kougen (which admittedly I didn't have a handle on for my first year or so of playing).

If you can do that, I'll overlook the fact that you just tried to make asking for classes sound like a bad thing. I've seen a lot of crazy personal attacks in this folder but that one really leaves me puzzled.

>I guess you are not included in Caelumia's little pack of friends

You guess correctly. They are acquaintences with mutal respect who are on good terms with each other. Kougen is not in a "circle of friends", because that would imply exluding others and Kougen does not think or operate that way.

>a Celestian's word is worth less than a handful of Fluffy feathers

A bit stereotype, but I can't really blame a Tezirite for having that mindset. It's not like the feelings are much better on the return trip. However, only a fool believes he has nothing to learn from his enemies. You may not "take his word" for anything, but that doesn't exclude you from tricking him into revealing information, does it?

>However, thank you very much for the "me to" post.

Reene can take care of herself. My purpose posting in this thread was to explain an alternate and neutral point of view to help you balance out your attitude, because I perceive that it may be leading you to make some poor decisions. If you disagree with that assessment, go back and reread this thread from the beginning.

~ Celestian Kougen Aensworth, Advisor of Ilithi

"A closed mind is like a closed book; just a block of wood."

Heh.. Don't look like a lot of people like you Stolas. Your one mean and nasty dude but I guess that goes along with calling people out for their actions. This "Lets all get along" attitude that eveyone has is a joke. We arn't all gonna get along, we arn't ever gonna see eye to eye and if a comprimise is made on anything you can be sure no one is gonna be happy.

When I just started DR and was a 2-bit punk, (well I'm still a 2-bit punk) Most of the people in crossing, (yes I know I'm being general but so what I can't remember things) wouldn't take 2 seconds to insult me much less talk to me or help a newb out.

Then I met this A$#%@le Stolas who not only was very rude but gave me a lecture on bothering his betters. Needless to say I didn't like this guy, but half way through the tirade of insults and demeaning conversation I realized that this guy was actually taking the time to roleplay with me when most other people wouldn't even talk to me. Even better I noticed that he was giving me much needed info and advice even if he was talking to me like a half-retarded child.

I had quite a few run-ins with this Dasteredly Moonie (Don't tell him I called him a moonie, he hates that) Found out he ran around in Shard so... being the pest that I was I decided to go and bug him up there. I found out real quick that bugging Stolas can get you killed. But after I had my run in he drug me to a Empath and explained them and then showed me how to regain favors. All the while though explaining that I was inferior to him and owed him for taking his time up on schooling me.

All in all yes, Stolas isn't a nice guy. What he is though is a roleplayer. He might not be your tast of tea but alas most things arn't what you want them to be. He has taught me a few things that I think are most required lessons for DR;

1. Don't beg. Stuff isn't for free so quit asking people for hand outs. Earn them like they did.
2. Actions have consequences. After running your mouth someone is gonna cash in those checks you've been writing.
3. Be Polite. Then if they still treat you like dirt give them the non-respect they deserve. (if you can get away with it)
4. Nothing is Fair. No matter how how fair someone says they are they will still help their friends way more than they would ever help you. Deal with it or call em out.
5. Speak Up. No matter how your opinion is viewed let people know how you feel. It's your right. Nothing ever got fixed by you sitting around and hoping.
6. Help when you can. One day you'll need a drag to the empath.

Well that's about it. I await the replies telling me how unintelligent or uninformed I am. Wheeeeee.

Lacero, Student of the Lower (way down,no further, a little more, it only floods down here in the summer) Orders.

- (Some Cool and whitty quote to be posted soon)

P.S. (No I can't spell and Don't know how to use a spell check, Deal with it. heh)

I don't remember Kougen being disruptive...and I'm about as old school as they get. No name dropping needed.

But I did know Rumet very well, and even where he went to school IRL, thats +100 Old school points right?

-Kiluminati

>>The best villains in my opinion are the ambiguous ones. They keep people wondering and they make people uneasy because their motivations or goals are either unclear or they might not really seem all that bad. They might make people question whether the ends will justify the means. In short, they create conflict, not just externally with other people but within themselves and their circles of friends.

>>This needs to be emphasized.<<

>>Yes.

Subjective opinion means very little when trying to prove a point, it only shows what you like. That is like saying the best painter is Titian as opposed to other great masters. Maybe you like the crispness of Michelangelo or the play of color in a Carravaggio or the softness of a Rapheal. Because, what you prefer does not mean it is the only thing or the "best".

The best villians to me have goals, feelings and viewpoints. Darth Vader, awesome bad guy. Lucifer in Paradise Lost, awesome bad guy. Iago, awesome bad guy. However, the reader or viewer gets to see the entire character and how it developes. If you ran contrary to any of those guys, I am sure you would say they were one sided because all you get is the stick. Caelumia, like Wedge's dad thinks that their villian is horrible and mean because they are a foot off the floor and being choked to death.

Shadowmancer Stolas, Darkling of the Progeny

"Moon Mages have already been given some of the most ridiculously powerful magic in the game, third only to Warrior Mages and Barbarians" -Armifer

>>The best villians to me have goals, feelings and viewpoints.

That in no way contradicts Reene's argument. Of course good villains have all of the above. They work better when we as an audience (or someone interacting with them) don't know exactly what all of the above are.

It's also exceedingly difficult to write for/portray a properly ambiguous/gray villain, which is why so many fall back on the "I AM EVIL MWAHAHA" crap.


Syralon
Cleric of Ushnish
<Conskill> You're like an Empath, but with a drug dependancy.

When I was still new to the GMing thing, a conversation drifted toward the Necromancers. What I said then is pretty much my only reasonable contribution to this conversation.

"The only people that self-identify as evil are the mentally ill; realistic evil is borne out of powerful and consuming motives. The eeeeevil sorcerer is a childish characterization, I want to explore what forces and goals would move a functional personality to do something profane."

And that's about it. I'll see ya'll next week.

You big tease.

But yes, I think this is a good way to look at things. And like Tortolia said, its really hard to play the evil character.

If my character had mustachios I would twirl them while cackling.


___________________________
Arilana stifles a giggle and pokes herself in the stomach. A belch like none you have ever heard, echoes across the land!
Arilana glances around the room and says, "Someone pull my finger."

Conversly not all "bad" people are deep or complex or striving for something that they view as good by any means nessicarly. Some people are just mean. Selfishness, excessive sense of entitlment and just plain meanness are all traits some people posess in excess.

Sadism is just as valid motivation for a "bad" person as some rational or reasonable goal that they see worth persuing by any means. Do they sit around and cackle and say gee, i'm really evil? no. Do they identify themself as what the moral majority would call good? no. They realize they things they do are "bad" but they don't care. These kinds of people are very very common in our world.



-Serc


"Moon Mages have already been given some of the most ridiculously powerful magic in the game, third only to Warrior Mages and Barbarians" -Armifer

Not a villan in the comic book sense I guess. However I would have to contend that it does make a person evil. This type of person would become a villan (as much of real historys villans are) if they found themselves in a position of power as power tends to magnify such personality traits.

Vlad for example. He was a jerk with a position of power.


-Serc


"Moon Mages have already been given some of the most ridiculously powerful magic in the game, third only to Warrior Mages and Barbarians" -Armifer

You got that a little backwards from what I was saying. Power did not make vlad a jerk. Vlad was a jerk, and then had power. That made him a villan.

As far as motivation, there have been plenty of people who have had motivation that also failed to have the standing forests of impailed bodies. It seems his motivation was more his sadism than it was his outside pressures. I'll conceed i'm less than an expert on Vlad in particular but I thought he illustrated my point nicely. A sadist without power is a man who beats his wife and puts his ciggerette out on her arms. A sadist with power has thousands of people impaled and dines amongst the bodies. The diffrence between the two is power, not motivation.

Both are evil, it's just a matter of scale.


-Serc


"Moon Mages have already been given some of the most ridiculously powerful magic in the game, third only to Warrior Mages and Barbarians" -Armifer

>However, whenever I see the name Kougen that is what I remember.

Anecdotal, sketchy, and you couldn't even drop another name to back it up?

Let me help you out. Was the other person Koriki? If the answer is "yes", then I was not in fact being "disruptive" but more along the lines of "standing up for myself against someone who took me out in the wilderness against my will, then shot me with a crossbow and left me for dead, lost in an area I'd never seen before when I protested." Because Koriki was the only person I ever had a conflict remotely near this scale with. I would have been about 10th circle at the time, and it would have been, I believe, mid-to-late Summer of 1999.

If the answer is not Koriki, then you're either mistaken or blowing smoke out your third point of contact. Also, since you're having trouble with names, please think very hard and make sure you are not mistaking me for "Kougar", another Moon Mage back in the day whom I was mistaken for more than once.

I will assume you concede all my other points regarding the actual issue of this thread as inarguably valid since you've chosen to take this route to respond to me instead.

~ Celestian Kougen Aensworth, Advisor of Ilithi

"And while I agree that jerks that are just jerks certainly have their place, a "major villain" (for lack of a better term) who is a sadist for the sake of being a sadist is considerably less interesting to me from a roleplaying and plot perspective than the likes of, say, Scorpius. Or Karosti and company, in DR's case."

Sure, they don't take the cake for being interesting. I brought it up because it seemed like it was being dismissed as bad roleplaying and unrealistic which was my point of contention. Somtimes people really are just nasty people. Does it make for good roleplay? Sure, the worlds gotta have jerks who arn't also super villans. And super villans who are just jerks.

Okay, i'm getting bored with my own point now.


-Serc


"Moon Mages have already been given some of the most ridiculously powerful magic in the game, third only to Warrior Mages and Barbarians" -Armifer

4th Point.

3rd is the thigh.

Always remember to undo the chest strap in a tree landing.

Slip right to avoid collision.

Trucks will meet us at the drop zone.


-=Dirge. We've been kicking ash for centuries!=-

<<4th Point.

3rd is the thigh.

Always remember to undo the chest strap in a tree landing.

Slip right to avoid collision.>>

Nice.

Madigan

>I require more goats to sacrifice. Carry on.

Iron chef America just did secret ingredient 'goat'. Neither culinary combatant delivered on roasted goat head though.

I see a theme.

"They poured him from his helmet and they poured him from his boots......"

Which begs me to wonder why we don't have a song to sing like "Blood on the Risers" when we mis-teleport or open a rogue gate?

'And he ain't gonna gate no more!"


-=Dirge. We've got vaults, a bank, a temple, and we're working on a dock!=-