Previous
>>Not sure if it's up for discussion, but I thought the ideal BG nerf was just upping the per-strike RT to HT-level seconds rather than reducing the damage.
For me BG went from killing a lava drake in 2-3 hits or so to 10 or so hits. Basically 1.5 casts. Now, that's still waaaaay more efficient at killing lava drakes than any single target spell Maz has access to. IMO that says a lot about single target TM that I think is worth considering. But it also makes me think that at least for PvE BG is still pretty good.
But in PvP since targets have more armor and are generally doing a good job trying to kill you back it's probably a lot worse and I would have prefered higher RT and full power strikes overall.
Mazrian
JULIAN
AMACKENZIE
Re: BG Nerf Overkill
04/06/2015 04:58 PM CDT
>>The OP showed a single cast of one spell doing plenty of damage to a overclassed willing target with a damage barrier up. It's not a very interesting scenario.
Alright, I think I can explain this problem clearer. I'll break it down according to the details.
>>The OP showed a single cast of one spell
One spell that behaves a certain way. Any targeted magic ability can be broken down to such simple terms as "one spell" but then it wouldn't account for all of the variety that exists in the game. This is a targeted magic spell that functions in a very unique way, similar to how every magic guild has a targeted magic spell that functions in a unique way. That it was one casting does not mean it should be treated with the same cookie-cutter damage outline as is used for every other spell.
>>doing plenty of damage
I'm sorry, but that is just incorrect. I'll put this in terms of weapon damage. If TM spells that need to be targeted are akin to ranged weapons that need to be aimed, we can say that BG is the lobbed thrown weapon of TM. Seven waves of BG, each a second apart, took me down to 70 vitality. That is 30 vitality worth of damage. That is 4-5 vitality of damage per hit. As you said, I am a severely overclassed target, with a very large rank gap in terms of Erixx's offenses and my defenses. I do not believe that 30 vitality worth of damage accounts for that gap. Now imagine this in terms of weapon damage. Imagine a barbarian with 1600 LT running a script that lobs a kertig throwing axe at me and picks it up immediately to lob again, each lob a second apart. I am positive that I will take much more than 30 vitality worth of damage after the end of 7 lobs.
>>to a overclassed willing target
Again, I cannot stress the overclassed aspect enough. This is based on more than 500 ranks worth of disparity. I'm sure you're familiar with how the ranks have been tightened in terms of applicable combat. What do you think seven casts of BG will do to an opponent that has as many defensive ranks as Erixx has offensive ones? If Erixx can only do 30 vitality of damage to me, a severely outclassed opponent, what can he do against closer fights?
>>willing target with a damage barrier up.
Yes, exactly. That's what makes this scenario important. I was a willing target with a damage barrier up. What do you think happens in PvP? Do you think players won't use damage barriers to mitigate offensive actions? Do you think I'll sit still in one room long enough for my opponent to act? Smart PvPers will -never- give their opponents any single advantage, and, in this scenario, I gave Erixx the most important one: staying in the same room. That I had a damage barrier up is irrelevant, because if mine works so well at my level, again, what do you think will happen with an evenly ranked fight?
>>It's not a very interesting scenario.
I completely disagree here :P. PvP is one of my biggest passions in this game. It is one of my top reasons for playing so long, and one of my top reasons to keep playing. There are many, many players who feel the same way that I do. This scenario is interesting because over the course of my career as a PvPer in parts of 3.0 and all of 3.1, I've gotten used to certain expectations from my opponents. I know what plenty of damage is, I know how scaling works according to ranks and stats, I know what guilds have what options and why. This nerf to BG more than just damages the functionality of a great spell, it practically cripples the WM using it. Ice Patch needs to be cast (lol hiding), Thunderclap won't pull me out of hiding, fire Rain takes too long to start up, Rimefang is only useful at melee, RoS and MaB's damage is negligible at best, and all targeted magic spells suffer because WMs just cannot keep their smarter opponents still. BG was one of the best options that WMs had in regards to applicable PvP. I strongly feel that it did not need a nerf, especially with combat changes, and if it did need one, it -definitely- did not need one that was this severe.
What does it matter if WMs can cast BG at critters? They can cast anything at critters. BG stood out as a unique spell because of what it could provide WMs against -players-.
Now I'm also curious to hear your input and why you think the way you do. What do you think one spell cast, working in the nature of BG, should do to somebody at even levels? At uneven levels? How do you think it should compare to other guild abilities?
Alright, I think I can explain this problem clearer. I'll break it down according to the details.
>>The OP showed a single cast of one spell
One spell that behaves a certain way. Any targeted magic ability can be broken down to such simple terms as "one spell" but then it wouldn't account for all of the variety that exists in the game. This is a targeted magic spell that functions in a very unique way, similar to how every magic guild has a targeted magic spell that functions in a unique way. That it was one casting does not mean it should be treated with the same cookie-cutter damage outline as is used for every other spell.
>>doing plenty of damage
I'm sorry, but that is just incorrect. I'll put this in terms of weapon damage. If TM spells that need to be targeted are akin to ranged weapons that need to be aimed, we can say that BG is the lobbed thrown weapon of TM. Seven waves of BG, each a second apart, took me down to 70 vitality. That is 30 vitality worth of damage. That is 4-5 vitality of damage per hit. As you said, I am a severely overclassed target, with a very large rank gap in terms of Erixx's offenses and my defenses. I do not believe that 30 vitality worth of damage accounts for that gap. Now imagine this in terms of weapon damage. Imagine a barbarian with 1600 LT running a script that lobs a kertig throwing axe at me and picks it up immediately to lob again, each lob a second apart. I am positive that I will take much more than 30 vitality worth of damage after the end of 7 lobs.
>>to a overclassed willing target
Again, I cannot stress the overclassed aspect enough. This is based on more than 500 ranks worth of disparity. I'm sure you're familiar with how the ranks have been tightened in terms of applicable combat. What do you think seven casts of BG will do to an opponent that has as many defensive ranks as Erixx has offensive ones? If Erixx can only do 30 vitality of damage to me, a severely outclassed opponent, what can he do against closer fights?
>>willing target with a damage barrier up.
Yes, exactly. That's what makes this scenario important. I was a willing target with a damage barrier up. What do you think happens in PvP? Do you think players won't use damage barriers to mitigate offensive actions? Do you think I'll sit still in one room long enough for my opponent to act? Smart PvPers will -never- give their opponents any single advantage, and, in this scenario, I gave Erixx the most important one: staying in the same room. That I had a damage barrier up is irrelevant, because if mine works so well at my level, again, what do you think will happen with an evenly ranked fight?
>>It's not a very interesting scenario.
I completely disagree here :P. PvP is one of my biggest passions in this game. It is one of my top reasons for playing so long, and one of my top reasons to keep playing. There are many, many players who feel the same way that I do. This scenario is interesting because over the course of my career as a PvPer in parts of 3.0 and all of 3.1, I've gotten used to certain expectations from my opponents. I know what plenty of damage is, I know how scaling works according to ranks and stats, I know what guilds have what options and why. This nerf to BG more than just damages the functionality of a great spell, it practically cripples the WM using it. Ice Patch needs to be cast (lol hiding), Thunderclap won't pull me out of hiding, fire Rain takes too long to start up, Rimefang is only useful at melee, RoS and MaB's damage is negligible at best, and all targeted magic spells suffer because WMs just cannot keep their smarter opponents still. BG was one of the best options that WMs had in regards to applicable PvP. I strongly feel that it did not need a nerf, especially with combat changes, and if it did need one, it -definitely- did not need one that was this severe.
What does it matter if WMs can cast BG at critters? They can cast anything at critters. BG stood out as a unique spell because of what it could provide WMs against -players-.
Now I'm also curious to hear your input and why you think the way you do. What do you think one spell cast, working in the nature of BG, should do to somebody at even levels? At uneven levels? How do you think it should compare to other guild abilities?
AMACKENZIE
Re: BG Nerf Overkill
04/06/2015 05:08 PM CDT
Also, just to clarify, Erixx is the one who severely outclasses me. I hope some of the language isn't creating misunderstandings, though that's a compliment if ever I've heard one. If the misunderstanding exists, I mean :P
DR-RICINUS
Re: BG Nerf Overkill
04/06/2015 05:11 PM CDT
>>That it was one casting does not mean it should be treated with the same cookie-cutter damage outline as is used for every other spell.
It's not treated the same. It has more individual hits than a multistrike. But it is still one cast of one spell, and when you want to compare how much damage output it does, it should be compared with other single casts of spells. Just because you want to compare it to casting Geyser 5 times, doesn't mean it's a good comparison.
>>I'm sorry, but that is just incorrect. I'll put this in terms of weapon damage.
I stopped reading here. Compare it to other TM damage, or stop arguing.
>>If Erixx can only do 30 vitality of damage to me, a severely outclassed opponent, what can he do against closer fights?
Use actual tactics.
ASGM Ricinus
Core, Logistics, Survival
Cleric Advocate
It's not treated the same. It has more individual hits than a multistrike. But it is still one cast of one spell, and when you want to compare how much damage output it does, it should be compared with other single casts of spells. Just because you want to compare it to casting Geyser 5 times, doesn't mean it's a good comparison.
>>I'm sorry, but that is just incorrect. I'll put this in terms of weapon damage.
I stopped reading here. Compare it to other TM damage, or stop arguing.
>>If Erixx can only do 30 vitality of damage to me, a severely outclassed opponent, what can he do against closer fights?
Use actual tactics.
ASGM Ricinus
Core, Logistics, Survival
Cleric Advocate
AMACKENZIE
Re: BG Nerf Overkill
04/06/2015 05:48 PM CDT
>>It's not treated the same. It has more individual hits than a multistrike. But it is still one cast of one spell, and when you want to compare how much damage output it does, it should be compared with other single casts of spells. Just because you want to compare it to casting Geyser 5 times, doesn't mean it's a good comparison.
I think I understand what you're saying. Even with 7 casts and the baseline damage, BG should do a -total- amount of damage comparable to a -single- casting of any other TM spell. Right? Okay, with that information in the background, I will try to explain that, while this is a good and balanced idea on paper, it is not so easy to apply to an actual PvP situation. Sometimes the total damage of BG does much less than a single casting of any other TM spell because of how many factors there are to account for. The WM's position, the opponent's armor, the opponent's vitality barrier, the opponent's average defenses (which combat rank tightening has made more important), and the opponent's barriers. All of those defenses build on top of each other until every casting of BG, which is a multistrike, sure, ends up doing very little damage overall. This is why it is not applicable in an evenly matched fight. It simply does not do enough damage to get over the vitality and guild-relevant barriers to allow it to be used later.
Can it be used near the end of a fight? Sure. Of course. That's good tactics. But warmages have no other openers because of how underwhelming their debilitaters are.
>>I stopped reading here. Compare it to other TM damage, or stop arguing.
It might be an apples and oranges example, but let's throw both at the opponent in a fast-paced PvP situation and see if they can tell the difference. Like you said, I have no other TM spells to compare BG to because it is nothing like any other TM spell. You can't put mana into weapons, sure, but after a certain point, TM just becomes another damaging skill after the mana cap has been reached. It doesn't matter what examples I bring up in terms of TM because as long as TM grows faster than their weapons, warrior mages will try to use their TM in a fight, meaning it becomes a primary form of damage in the same way that weapons do. In any PvP scenario, you can begin to chart up predictions based on the primary skillsets that the involved parties have to work with.
>>Use actual tactics.
Magic is problematic with any PVP match for the same reasons that aiming a bow or crossbow is, especially an at-level match, because of hiding, leaving the room during aiming, the cast/pulse time of cyclics, etc. I'm just summing up, but there aren't many tactics that can be employed to use most of the magical skill set. Their debilitaters are strongly lacking, especially since the defensive contest changes. I know that a war mage's primary skills are not of nearly as much use in spars as they should be. While I have extensive experience with PVP, I'm still only human (elf), and I know it's not perfect. If you see options that I am not seeing, could you please elaborate on them?
I think I understand what you're saying. Even with 7 casts and the baseline damage, BG should do a -total- amount of damage comparable to a -single- casting of any other TM spell. Right? Okay, with that information in the background, I will try to explain that, while this is a good and balanced idea on paper, it is not so easy to apply to an actual PvP situation. Sometimes the total damage of BG does much less than a single casting of any other TM spell because of how many factors there are to account for. The WM's position, the opponent's armor, the opponent's vitality barrier, the opponent's average defenses (which combat rank tightening has made more important), and the opponent's barriers. All of those defenses build on top of each other until every casting of BG, which is a multistrike, sure, ends up doing very little damage overall. This is why it is not applicable in an evenly matched fight. It simply does not do enough damage to get over the vitality and guild-relevant barriers to allow it to be used later.
Can it be used near the end of a fight? Sure. Of course. That's good tactics. But warmages have no other openers because of how underwhelming their debilitaters are.
>>I stopped reading here. Compare it to other TM damage, or stop arguing.
It might be an apples and oranges example, but let's throw both at the opponent in a fast-paced PvP situation and see if they can tell the difference. Like you said, I have no other TM spells to compare BG to because it is nothing like any other TM spell. You can't put mana into weapons, sure, but after a certain point, TM just becomes another damaging skill after the mana cap has been reached. It doesn't matter what examples I bring up in terms of TM because as long as TM grows faster than their weapons, warrior mages will try to use their TM in a fight, meaning it becomes a primary form of damage in the same way that weapons do. In any PvP scenario, you can begin to chart up predictions based on the primary skillsets that the involved parties have to work with.
>>Use actual tactics.
Magic is problematic with any PVP match for the same reasons that aiming a bow or crossbow is, especially an at-level match, because of hiding, leaving the room during aiming, the cast/pulse time of cyclics, etc. I'm just summing up, but there aren't many tactics that can be employed to use most of the magical skill set. Their debilitaters are strongly lacking, especially since the defensive contest changes. I know that a war mage's primary skills are not of nearly as much use in spars as they should be. While I have extensive experience with PVP, I'm still only human (elf), and I know it's not perfect. If you see options that I am not seeing, could you please elaborate on them?
URITEL
Re: BG Nerf Overkill
04/06/2015 05:49 PM CDT
So, chiming in on this thread.. yeah, BG seems like it's thrown, and I've had players lob their weapons at me with the rough ranks you were talking about Limani, and with MAF up I was met with the same (or even less) results than what you presented. Ask Buuwl when he was busy lobbing things at Uritel.
>>That I had a damage barrier up is irrelevant, because if mine works so well at my level, again, what do you think will happen with an evenly ranked fight?
Looking at their spellbook, they at least seem to have SOME options available that can be used AOE to help against the non-targeting situation.
Fire Rain has a ramp up, correct. TC does NOT pull you from hiding, but if FR was casted and then TC afterwards, wouldn't that facilitate some time? FR would pull you (maybe) in time before the TC fell off. After casting TC, he could likely cast Vertigo after you were pulled from hiding. Or if that wasn't working, AOE shockwave to keep you at bay? AOE Frostbite to drop your stamina/power? AOE Chain Lightning (not sure if that pulls from hiding)? Tremor to nuke balance? Rimefang coupled with tremor to make you cautious about how you choose to engage?
In BG's defense though, it seems like every action/gesture they have is based on the LOB mechanic of thrown. Perhaps give them tiers (not sure if this was suggested already) like thrown does.. LOB/THROW/HURL. Point/wave/jazzhands. The more motion you make with your hands the higher the RT.
AMACKENZIE
Re: BG Nerf Overkill
04/06/2015 06:04 PM CDT
>>Fire Rain has a ramp up, correct. TC does NOT pull you from hiding, but if FR was casted and then TC afterwards, wouldn't that facilitate some time?
You know me, would I stay in the same room long enough for Fire Rain to pulse against me? Would I not immediately hide again after it if I was caught unaware? Shadowstep + Clout and all Fire Rain becomes is a dodgeable pull out of hiding. At even levels, I can deal with that.
>>FR would pull you (maybe) in time before the TC fell off. After casting TC, he could likely cast Vertigo after you were pulled from hiding.
I think I can retreat and regroup faster than the WM can prepare a full Vertigo, unless they snapcast it, in which case I'm 90% sure I can withstand it. There's also other factors like item hiders, khri silence, things that can turn in my favor and buy me the time I need. Warmages have to dance the same timing dance that thieves do.
>>Or if that wasn't working, AOE shockwave to keep you at bay?
That's... interesting. I never thought about that or tested it. I assume that because so few WMs actually use it, it's not that good of an ability, unfortunately :/
>>AOE Frostbite to drop your stamina/power?
Another unfortunately underwhelming ability.
>>AOE Chain Lightning (not sure if that pulls from hiding)?
-That- is a sound idea, actually, because every time Erixx has used it on me, it has pulled me out of hiding. However, again, rank disparity. Would an evenly matched WM be able to pull me out of hiding? Would it hit? Would it pull me out even on a miss? I need to test all that.
>>Tremor to nuke balance?
Applicable but also not strong enough.
>>Rimefang coupled with tremor to make you cautious about how you choose to engage?
But then what happens to FC? Rimefang's a cyclic too. They can use CL to pull me out of hiding, but I need to see if it works on a miss. Even with Rimefang up, what's stopping me from stalking the warmage and sniping them until they give up?
And this is just from the thief point of view. What's your experience with WMs based on the cleric toolset?
You know me, would I stay in the same room long enough for Fire Rain to pulse against me? Would I not immediately hide again after it if I was caught unaware? Shadowstep + Clout and all Fire Rain becomes is a dodgeable pull out of hiding. At even levels, I can deal with that.
>>FR would pull you (maybe) in time before the TC fell off. After casting TC, he could likely cast Vertigo after you were pulled from hiding.
I think I can retreat and regroup faster than the WM can prepare a full Vertigo, unless they snapcast it, in which case I'm 90% sure I can withstand it. There's also other factors like item hiders, khri silence, things that can turn in my favor and buy me the time I need. Warmages have to dance the same timing dance that thieves do.
>>Or if that wasn't working, AOE shockwave to keep you at bay?
That's... interesting. I never thought about that or tested it. I assume that because so few WMs actually use it, it's not that good of an ability, unfortunately :/
>>AOE Frostbite to drop your stamina/power?
Another unfortunately underwhelming ability.
>>AOE Chain Lightning (not sure if that pulls from hiding)?
-That- is a sound idea, actually, because every time Erixx has used it on me, it has pulled me out of hiding. However, again, rank disparity. Would an evenly matched WM be able to pull me out of hiding? Would it hit? Would it pull me out even on a miss? I need to test all that.
>>Tremor to nuke balance?
Applicable but also not strong enough.
>>Rimefang coupled with tremor to make you cautious about how you choose to engage?
But then what happens to FC? Rimefang's a cyclic too. They can use CL to pull me out of hiding, but I need to see if it works on a miss. Even with Rimefang up, what's stopping me from stalking the warmage and sniping them until they give up?
And this is just from the thief point of view. What's your experience with WMs based on the cleric toolset?
ROBERTDH
Re: BG Nerf Overkill
04/06/2015 06:08 PM CDT
DR PVP is bad and will always be bad. You don't get to have both skill progression and balance.
>Forgive my snark, but welcome to the life of a warrior mage.
>Forgive my snark, but welcome to the life of a warrior mage.
YOUNGS14
Re: BG Nerf Overkill
04/06/2015 06:12 PM CDT
>I stopped reading here. Compare it to other TM damage, or stop arguing.
So since it's come up a couple of times from different people and might be some source of confusion, is WM TM(or mage TM in general) not supposed to be comparative with weapon damage and other guild abilities that do damage? Like I don't want us to start having to build target dummies and parsing ourselves but...do we have to? In no way do I want guilds to be identical but just from the conversation alone PVPers do feel like some guilds main method of damage even in their own ideal situations are inherently worse or better than others by more than a small margin.
So since it's come up a couple of times from different people and might be some source of confusion, is WM TM(or mage TM in general) not supposed to be comparative with weapon damage and other guild abilities that do damage? Like I don't want us to start having to build target dummies and parsing ourselves but...do we have to? In no way do I want guilds to be identical but just from the conversation alone PVPers do feel like some guilds main method of damage even in their own ideal situations are inherently worse or better than others by more than a small margin.
AMACKENZIE
Re: BG Nerf Overkill
04/06/2015 06:13 PM CDT
>>DR PVP is bad and will always be bad. You don't get to have both skill progression and balance.
Not immediately no. It doesn't mean we shouldn't try. Thank you for your valuable insight, by the way, you can go make useless posts in other threads now.
Not immediately no. It doesn't mean we shouldn't try. Thank you for your valuable insight, by the way, you can go make useless posts in other threads now.
AMISH
Re: BG Nerf Overkill
04/06/2015 06:14 PM CDT
I think its hilarious how broken pvp is atleast for this guild.
Rank perception slow as mud, rank armor slow as mud, defenses slow as mud.
Oh yeah weve got AOE if you stand right there and wait for it.
Or spells to hit you with, if we can see you and you stand right there and wait for it.
Or dont have twitching.
Or arent out of mana.
Our deabilitation spells are a joke, I literally use them like gags. Because a laugh is all its good for. Or of course fines from whatever town you happen to be in.
But we can summon a stone weapon. Mildly better than a crossing broadsword.
We're a glass cannon guild alright, more like a blinde guy with a musket with a really long fuse you light, with numb twitchy fingers and youve only got 5 matches.
ROBERTDH
Re: BG Nerf Overkill
04/06/2015 06:24 PM CDT
>Not immediately no. It doesn't mean we shouldn't try.
I would be greatly interested in any game designs you could use as examples where a DR-style model managed an acceptable PVP game. IRE games might come close, but they also have a much more limited advancement model (and are heavily dependent on triggers last I saw). Otherwise its rather stupid application of limited development time to just be blindly trashing about in the hopes you will turn lead to gold.
Science, yo.
>Forgive my snark, but welcome to the life of a warrior mage.
I would be greatly interested in any game designs you could use as examples where a DR-style model managed an acceptable PVP game. IRE games might come close, but they also have a much more limited advancement model (and are heavily dependent on triggers last I saw). Otherwise its rather stupid application of limited development time to just be blindly trashing about in the hopes you will turn lead to gold.
Science, yo.
>Forgive my snark, but welcome to the life of a warrior mage.
DR-RICINUS
::Thread Closed::
04/06/2015 06:25 PM CDT
Alright this thread is done. If you want to discuss TM in general, or PvP in general, take it to the appropriate folders.
ASGM Ricinus
Core, Logistics, Survival
Cleric Advocate
ASGM Ricinus
Core, Logistics, Survival
Cleric Advocate
DR-RICINUS
Re: ::Thread Closed::
04/06/2015 06:56 PM CDT
Some posts were removed, since the thread was closed.
ASGM Ricinus
Core, Logistics, Survival
Cleric Advocate
ASGM Ricinus
Core, Logistics, Survival
Cleric Advocate
DR-ANNWYL
Re: BG Nerf Overkill ::THREAD OVER::
04/06/2015 08:05 PM CDT
This one is still done.
Annwyl
Message Board Supervisor
If you've questions or comments, take it to e-mail by writing me at DR-Annwyl@play.net.
