>>AS may not be everything but it's certainly the most-thing. And in any case, that answer still doesn't address "why;" why semis should have such illogically consistent access to so much more of it than squares. The fact that the physical classes don't have the superior (or even equivalent) physical attack strength just doesn't make sense, and that's simply how I see it. More variety in set ups whose efficacy is also capped in a more or less horizontal manner does not offset it, particularly at end game where even a post-cap warrior isn't going to be able to outmaneuver post-cap enemies in many cases with any great efficacy.

This.

Also, I totally get that Warriors are ok the way they are. They could use some love in certain areas of course, but over all yeah, I agree, Warriors don't suck. That does not however, mean that they shouldn't feel slighted over the fact that they take a back seat in their own focused area of combat by not one but two different Semi professions. Seriously, Warriors should be the preeminent, absolute tip-top, penacle, yay the very quintessence of AS awesomeness in the game, not third string wanna-be's. Seriously. Not kidding. :P

Especially with the Paladin circle review and their ability to tank ramped up, that clearly puts them in the role of taking damage being their thing. Rogues are all about ambush, Bards are jacks-of-all-trades. Warriors should be THE physical combat guys in terms of AS.

Just to note that just because this discussion on warrior AS has once again faded to silence in the face of no real prospect of it being addressed (just like every other time over the years that it comes up)...

I just had a casual conversation with a Paladin friend of mine who is 82 trains about AS. He swings in the low to mid 500s with his own abilities/spells. 82 trains puts him in the range of somewhere between 5.6 and 5.7 million experience, roughly. He has 18 more levels of weapon and combat maneuver training, plus spell lore post cap to look forward to further increase his AS.

I swing a fully specialized, fully bonded 8x waraxe with Symbol of Courage and Rank 5 Surge of Strength at an AS of 535. I have nearly 15 million experience. The only avenue I have to conceivably look forward to to increase my AS through training is to learn spell 425 and become a mutant at a cost that would essentially equal half of my paladin friend's entire training point pool (2.5million post-cap experience for a warrior to learn 425). Not to include harness power or lore.

And I don't even want to hear about gear and enhancives. This is an issue about warriors and their available skills producing inferior AS, all else being equal.

I just don't comprehend how the official stance can be that this isn't a problem.

-Mohrgan's player

I would have loved to be able to hunt with warriors 5 levels under me and not feel emasculated by their damage dealing capability. At cap or near it, a warrior's mstrike is far more damaging than a paladins.

Paladins have to have higher AS than warriors because they don't get as many swings. Give warriors the same AS and their MOC emasculates paladins.

Agreed. Outside of invasions, I almost never mstrike. If I had the AS of a paladin, I'd use it a lot more because I'd pretty much be guaranteed a hit. Nothing says "oh crap" quite like mstriking a turtled pure while it preps to cast, or 2 more walk in while you're in extended RT. Berserk is even worse. In many areas, you just go chasing after things you can't hit, and even if you can, the loot's all gone by the time you've wandered away a few rooms.

Kerl

I dont mean to play devil's advocate here but atleast the comparison with the 82 train paladin doesnt do the issue justice. My warrior is 83 and definitely swings in the mid 500s self spelled (wspec, bonding, holler, surge, symbol of courage, supremacy) before adding in other things like Coup de Grace or berserk to potentially put me well into the 600s and i'm an Erithian. Granted the last two options are not common but I do otherwise optimize as much as I can to swing as hard as possible(8x weapon, better than average enhancives). My perception of this issue hasnt really been a number gap but more of a fun/practicality gap between the two.

Things that might help if tweaked:

Holler has a stiff limitation due to vocal stress without much justification, IMO. Griffin's voice has made this MUCH better, recently, but warcries might be an area to consolidate or ease vocal stress for some existing abilities and introduce new ones. The +AS warcries shouldnt be as difficult but others like cry should be for balance. This would further help make holler a constant during hunts while potentially opening up even more use of the other warcries without losing your voice in the process. Increasing the duration wouldnt hurt, either.

Berserk is fantastic and makes total sense for warriors RP-wise and mechanise wise. However, the +29 AS gained is not quite as useful for the majority of hunting situations with intelligent/turtled creatures. Perhaps this could be redistributed so the majority of warriors can benefit in more practical situations with a wider variety of weapon styles? Maybe develop a way to stop your berserk early and retain the AS bonus for X minutes? Or a new CMAN/martial stance altogether that lets us harness the rage and retain some of the +AS while boosting other offensive capabilities (CMAN effectiveness, bonding flare frequency, reduced stamina costs, mstrike recovery, reduced swing rt etc). The latter would be great for those that RP a less savage warrior.

Coup de Grace is a fun maneuver for my warrior and the mechanical benefits can be substantial. However, the duration of the +AS buff is far too short and combined with the higher stamina cost AND the need to engage a critter of the right type it cannot be sustained and typically isnt used due to the limited amount of CMAN points. Extending the duration, reducing the stamina cost slightly and possibly reducing the threshold to achieve the max bonus might help make this more attractive.

With our current set-up I definitely feel like I am capable of defeating critters decisively. However, it does touch a nerve when bards can swing as hard or almost as hard as you do with self haste and still have access to all of their other tools or a paladin swings harder than you with +DF, +damage weighting, auto-sancted weapon, double flares, and mass attack/disablers just by casting their normal spell routine...all while the warrior has to juggle 1-2 minute durations, vocal stress and stamina just to hope to have similar effectiveness. Still love playing a warrior, though :)

>Im assuming you're referring to a focused mstrike? I rarely use mstrike(except occasionally to berserk but thats under extremely limited conditions and oft times I run into another room and get imploded/immolated/nasty spell from a pure turtled). If you're referring to the focused mstrike I think most times stuff set up with feint dies pretty much the same with a 3 swing focused strike or 5 swing. If you're not talking about a focused mstrike, paladins have several spells that incapacitate mobs(My sorc got put on his knees and couldnt move for quite a while by walking into a room with a paladin on more than one occasion) that leave you in 3 second soft casting rt instead of 10+ hard rt, I know which one seems less dangerous to me.

I'm referring to how readily paladins and warriors hand out emasculating amounts of damage when I am hunting in a group with them. They both hand out damage as rates that prevents me learning, but warriors hand out the higher damage and the main reason is mstrike. Far from the warrior suffering emasculation, when I have been group hunting, its the warriors that are among the worst offenders at doing the emasculation.

I still think fondly of my "chaw" idea--currently, think "the Warriors' version of Alchemy"--where you would bundle different herbs together and munch them over time. (I even included "give a bonus to WTrick Spit" if you have a wad of chaw...") Naturally this would not work with potions; only the actual herbs.

That way if you get hit, and your wad of chaw includes the relevant herb, you can get healed essentially right away. Or maybe a round later. Or something. Have success rates--including "how likely are you to get the healing you need" and "how quickly"--be based on your skill ranks in WTrick.

Worried about Warcries taxing your vocal cords? Chaw the throat herb. Chaw the throat scar herb. Have your bundle be two of each, double your chances of getting the solace you need.

And of course there need to be limitations, like "only four herbs in a bundle". Different people might want different recipes. You could trade recipes around. There could be Auction-grade recipes, that have 5 or 6 herbs in a bundle. (Can only create the bundle if you know the recipe.)

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It's not perfect, but it's a step towards getting some more flavor [heh] in how Warriors work. (For everyone but the effete who don't like WTrick Spit anyhow. Like elves.)

If you're having a problem with warriors, or anyone for that matter, destroying everything in their group, I would suggest talking with them. I will frequently stow an axe and pull out a dagger and swap the other axe to the off hand, when in a bandit hunting group. This assures contact without killing many of the bandits. Sometimes I'll stance down to advanced stance instead. I also try to make sure everyone finishes up around the same time, that way the group wraps up the hunt faster.j

It all adds up to group etiquette. If people are doing something you don't appreciate, ask them to change what they're doing, and don't be afraid to remove them from their group. My personal pet peeves during invasions are people who run around with closed kill groups, especially if they don't search their kills, and people who run a looting script while in an invasion group, then leave once they're full to the gills with the group's loot.

Kerl

<If not, how many points does it take to max targetting bonus for a similarly focused warrior?>

9,000 mtps, though training 75 ranks of elementals will likely push you to convert P2M at some point, so - more

Another option is to increase the number of CMANS available to increase AS or to increase the points in AS or DS in CMANS for warriors. CMANS should be the scroll/spell equivalents for warriors, IMHO. Personally, I would prefer not to have to rely on scrolls I use or spells by casters for general AS/DS purposes. Having casters for special spells for certain foes, like liches would be great. Warriors do have a mutual benefit, however limited, like guard or protection for others in a group, as an example. I think there is a need for greater mutual benefit from warrior to caster, and caster to warrior.

What about side by side? It seems to be a rather under-utilized CMAN and I myself am unfamiliar with it, but according to the docs it adds to AS and I "think" DS as well, and that benefit seems to improve if others in the group have it as well. I wonder what happens if a group of 10-15 or more all had it. Just musing here, but if the benefits are worth it, and you regularly group hunt, it might be an option.

General Radeek Andoran
Drakes Vanguard
Defender of Wehnimer's Landing
Black Raider of the Mir'Sheq

Empires exist through conquest, they live on by exercising total control of the conquered.

Only the dead have seen the end of war - Plato

I would love something to boost warrior AS and/or combat effectiveness.

If not Attack strength boosters, maybe one of these:

Crit weighting
Damage weighting
RT reduction
More substantial weapon flares/abilities