<<No, you're wanting spiritual pures to have their cake and eat it too

I'm not trying to get anything for spiritual pures. I don't have a dog in that fight. If they think they're under-powered, they can advocate for a change. I'm trying to suggest something to plug the hole you keep bringing up and your response seems to boil down to "well, someone else might get a benefit from it, so it's unacceptable." Which is pretty frustrating, tbh. If it fixes your concern, why does it matter than someone else may get a minor, sub-optimal, but "technically possible" benefit from it?

Also, you've specifically used the phrase "have cake and eat it too" as something you think wizards should get. Again, this feels like an intractable double standard.

>I'm trying to suggest something to plug the hole you keep bringing up and your response seems to boil down to "well, someone else might get a benefit from it, so it's unacceptable." Which is pretty frustrating, tbh. If it fixes your concern, why does it matter than someone else may get a minor, sub-optimal, but "technically possible" benefit from it?

I'm not looking for a fix that unbalances the entire bolting and warding systems, which each have trade-offs. Professions aren't meant to be homogenized. Spiritual pures enjoy superiority with warding spells while having baseline access to all bolt types. Wizards are meant to enjoy superiority with bolts while having baseline access to their core CS spell (519). We're already at an imbalance, but I can live with that if we get a bolt solution that reaches parity, not equality, with what the post-cap spiritual pures can achieve.

I disagree with allowing spiritual pures to achieve equal superiority with bolts (and they do have native ones), while wizards will never be able to do the same with warding spells. 519 is already far more limited than the spiritual pures' many offensive CS options because it eliminates anything fire immune and that is heavily crit resistant due to its lower initial concussion damage cycle.

>Also, you've specifically used the phrase "have cake and eat it too" as something you think wizards should get. Again, this feels like an intractable double standard.

No, I just want wizards to have the same cake that spiritual pures get to have at the post-cap level without giving even more cake to the spiritual pures. You want to keep giving every wizard ability away while preserving nothing as an innate trait for the class, and I totally disagree with this design approach that is inconsistent with the approach to development for every spiritual pure class.

I think I just need to end this line of discussion by saying I don't understand the premise you're coming from where you seem to only be happy with an improvement if no one else benefits (even to a lesser degree). :/

From my point-of-view, fixing the issue you were asking about while simultaneously opening up options to others was a feature, not a bug.

Also, simply a CHANNELed/AIMed bolt approach would never hit the 1.0 mean casts/kill or the 3 criteria I listed due to EBP and all the other factors mentioned previously.

Bolt AS discussions are always very interesting to me. I fully recognize that the post cap reliable power ceiling discussion can't really rely on bolt AS (what with the other bolt challenges). But it's always an area I like to leave room for in discussions.

For example, I've often wondered why all wizards can't use the 902 (self-only benefit) EVOKE variant on runestaves and wands to get a modest (but useful!) AS boost to Spell Aiming. Consider, an EL:E 50 wizard could EVOKE 902 runestaff and gain +15 bonus on Spell Aiming. Same with a wand. Make the spell useful to all wizards, not just war mages.

The spell itself isn't overly taxing in terms of mana, it is limited in that it would need to be periodically refreshed. And I suppose on the outside edge, one of those wand / runestaves with it cast on both the wand and the runestaff should be worth +30 to that same EL:E 50 wizard.

Doug

>>Also, simply a CHANNELed/AIMed bolt approach would never hit the 1.0 mean casts/kill or the 3 criteria I listed due to EBP and all the other factors mentioned previously.

I'm unaware of any spell in the game that means a 1.0 cast per kill. Not even 720, which is the most powerful single target attack spell in the game, achieves this.

Ambushing rogues don't even achieve 1 swing/kill ratio.

There should be nothing in this game that is complete insta kill every single time. In my opinion that would ruin the thrill and sense of risk that comes with post cap hunting, not to mention be completely boring.

I would love to see wizards master bolts a lot more than the current state. A full AS, defensive cast channeled bolt that is aimable through a self-cast only, short duration zero cooldown booster that could have reliability in fatal casts(at or around 80% when completely trained for it).

1 cast 1 kill should not be possible.

>>BSLove, you left out of your booster analysis that Wizards can also guzzle a pure potion (40 sips from Reim!) for the +15 from Bravery; one of the few Spirit boosters which is commonly available.

Fear not!!! I did state that as part of the math. I even stated that pure potions are much more common than 513 items.

>>Data proves otherwise for every spiritual pure.

I won't dispute any data you may have seen or possibly gathered yourself. I just simply haven't seen it myself, is all.

The closest I have seen to 1.0 is a max CS fully lored 1115, which was 1.4. So, pretty darn close but not exactly at 1 cast, 1 kill.

I love that statement now, it's like a GS Marine.

>>It's this sense of thrill and achievable power ceiling that drives some of us to continue playing our characters post-cap. However, these are options achievable via enhancives and boosters, not at a baseline level, so I don't feel that any sense of fun would be ruined for those who choose not to go this route.

I like this statement.

Doug

>I won't dispute any data you may have seen or possibly gathered yourself. I just simply haven't seen it myself, is all.

Estild has admitted it's pretty much 1.0. Again, this is with fully maximized CS at 3x spells, with enhancives, and 240.

>I love that statement now, it's like a GS Marine.

Haha!

>How does some hypothetical "technically possible" scenario that you yourself just said you don't find worth bothering with change that?

A system-wide change would change that if it allowed bolts to be more reliably used at a baseline level for all pures. I don't see any proposal to allow wizards to use outside warding spells any more proficiently, nor would I expect it to, so I don't know why you keep pushing for this equality for all concept. That's the very definition of boring for me, personally. Being able to further boost bolts in reliability should be a wizard-only spell ability.

>This isn't really how game design works. Chalenge needs to be provided by the framework of the game, not by expecting players to artificially handicap themselves. (They won't and shouldn't be expected to.)

This isn't the "challenge" that is provided to any other post-cap profession, so I disagree with some arbitrarily defined limit of acceptable fun for post-cap pure wizards.

I'm not trying to get anything for spiritual pures. I don't have a dog in that fight. If they think they're under-powered, they can advocate for a change. I'm trying to suggest something to plug the hole you keep bringing up and your response seems to boil down to "well, someone else might get a benefit from it, so it's unacceptable." Which is pretty frustrating, tbh. If it fixes your concern, why does it matter than someone else may get a minor, sub-optimal, but "technically possible" benefit from it?

Also, you've specifically used the phrase "have cake and eat it too" as something you think wizards should get. Again, this feels like an intractable double standard.

The issue of applying an ability to AIM bolts through general skills means that everyone and their cousin that can natively cast a bolt would have access to AIMing them. Other pures post cap (empath/cleric/sorcerers) already have very capable means to killing targets on a normal 1-2 cast base. Wizards have no such ability, even with 515 active or using CHANNEL to help "improve" hitting a vital area.

Bolts are subject to EBP. CS spells are not. SC spells are subject to a 1% fumble on a cast.

We'll say a target has a 10% to get a successful EBP when they're offensive.
Now we'll say a wizard makes use of ewave and knocks the target down (50% EBP reduction). The target is prone, but still has a 5% to EBP. Huh....5% EBP > 1% Fumble. Bolts are still behind.

Now we'll say 909 is in use and the wizard has max benefits from is at 225 EL:E ranks, this gives an additional 14% EBP reduction.
Target is knocked prone plus is now under 909. That's a 64% (50% from prone and 14% from EL:E ranks = 64%) EBP reduction. If the target had a 10% while standing, that amount is reduced to 3.6% when prone. That is still higher than 1% fumble chance from a CS spell.

Bolt will always be behind while subject to EBP if it's not reduced to 1% somehow.

Bolts are also subject to crit resistance and elemental resistances over CS spells. Also bolts are subject to armor of the target - heavier the armor, the harder it is for a bolt to land a high damage return. CS spells aren't treated the same.

Here's an example of bolt being subject to other factors and a CS spell isn't:

Forest Ogre - wearing metal breastplate
CS spell 1106
>cast ogre
You gesture at a forest ogre.
You concentrate intently on a forest ogre, and a pulse of pearlescent energy ripples toward it!
CS: +103 - TD: +33 + CvA: -10 + d100: +80 == +140
Warding failed!
The forest ogre shudders with moderate convulsions as pearlescent ripples envelop its body.
The forest ogre is smashed for 45 points of damage!
... 20 points of damage!
Good blow to the abdomen!
The forest ogre is stunned!
... 20 points of damage!
Good blow to back!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

Forest Ogre - wearing metal breastplate
Bolt spell 904 (from wand)
>wav rod
You wave your dark alder rod at a forest ogre.
1d100: 36 + Modifiers: 124 == 160

You hurl a hissing stream of acid at a forest ogre!
AS: +219 vs DS: +76 with AvD: +32 + d100 roll: +88 = +263
... and hit for 42 points of damage!
Acid reaches the chest causing a nasty rash!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
(rank 1 wound)

Dark Shambler - brig equivalent skin
CS spell 1106
>cast shambler
You gesture at a dark shambler.
You concentrate intently on a dark shambler, and a pulse of pearlescent energy ripples toward it!
CS: +103 - TD: +33 + CvA: +25 + d100: +54 == +149
Warding failed!
The dark shambler shudders with sporadic convulsions as pearlescent ripples envelop its body.
The dark shambler is smashed for 49 points of damage!
... 20 points of damage!
Good blow to chest!
The dark shambler is stunned!
... 10 points of damage!
Light blow to right arm.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

Dark Shambler - brig equivalent skin
Bolt spell 904 (from wand)
>wav rod
You wave your dark alder rod at a dark shambler.
1d100: 24 + Modifiers: 124 == 148

You hurl a hissing stream of acid at a dark shambler!
AS: +219 vs DS: +97 with AvD: +29 + d100 roll: +65 = +216
... and hit for 51 points of damage!
Spray of acid eats into the right hip!
The dark shambler is stunned!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
(rank 2 wound)

Wind Witch - cloth armor
CS spell 1106
>cast witch
You gesture at a wind witch.
You concentrate intently on a wind witch, and a pulse of pearlescent energy ripples toward it!
CS: +103 - TD: +27 + CvA: +25 + d100: +40 == +141
Warding failed!
The wind witch shudders with moderate convulsions as pearlescent ripples envelop its body.
The wind witch is smashed for 45 points of damage!
... 20 points of damage!
Good blow to left leg!
The wind witch is stunned!
... 20 points of damage!
Good blow to the abdomen!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

Wind Witch - cloth armor
Bolt spell 904 (from wand)
>wav rod
You wave your dark alder rod at a wind witch.
1d100: 19 + Modifiers: 124 == 143

You hurl a hissing stream of acid at a wind witch!
AS: +219 vs DS: +91 with AvD: +40 + d100 roll: +14 = +182
... and hit for 78 points of damage!
Spray of acid reduces the forearm to gelatin.
The wind witch crumples to the ground motionless.
The glowing specks of energy surrounding a wind witch suddenly shoot off in all directions, then quickly fade away.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
(rank 3 wound)

Three different creatures with varying types of armor. You can see how armor reduces the effectiveness of the bolt spell. You can also see how the CS spell (1106 in this case), with similar endrolls net you very similar results regardless of the armor the target is wearing.

Wizards, while yes, they do have access to a couple of CS spells, they just aren't as effective as what an emapth/cleric/sorcerer have access to. What LADYFLUER keeps suggesting is that since other pures already have access to quality CS spells for dealing with creatures, they have no need to be given access to also AIM bolts. Leave the superior bolting ability strictly to the wizards. Wizards have been told they are to bolt and have some CS spells for added flavor. Right now bolting is very tedious at post-cap and even once you start to get closer to cap. You run into more creatures that have heavy armor, are crit resistant or have outright immunity/resistances to elements that makes bolting less effective over CS spells.

This way wizards, once they get up there close to cap and post-cap can use quality level bolts on a similar power level that other pures can use quality level CS spells. If all other pures gain the ability to AIM bolts or have superior bolting power, then they're still a step ahead of wizards because they can use bolts to AIM or quality CS spells. Wizards will certainly have the ability to AIM bolts, but they'd still lack quality CS spells to fall back on so you're right back where you started - wizards being behind all other pures when it comes to outright killing power. This is what LADYFLEUR wants to avoid. Sorcerers/empaths/clerics have quality CS killing spells, wizards do not. Wizards do not currently have quality bolt killing spells post cap that matches CS kiling power from other pures. Other pures still have access to the same non-killing power bolts that wizards do.

We are told Wizards should bolt. Wizards should then excel at bolting post-cap over any other class. Therefore, don't give every other class the same high-end bolting ability to match killing power of other pure CS spells. They have CS spells to kill, they don't need bolts as well.

I don't know how to make this more clear to you than this, so hopefully it sheds some light and provides you with some better understanding.

-Drumpel

>This is where our data differs, which is my mistake. I wasn't factoring in the extra effect from 240 into a single cast, which I can see defining as such because it is a single action taken by the PC.

To be clear, I'm looking for this same approach in handling any potential solution to bolts for wizards because I'm prepared to pay the additional mana cost for a limited duration booster to achieve parity on the 3 criteria I listed as an offensive option. I don't expect it to be a baseline persistent effect available for no sacrifice.

The idea of a duplicate wizard is one I really love (Methais's 2 wizards are better than 1 concept), but I disagree with a persistent booster. I also disagree with it being a level 16 or 18 ability, and Estild has already said that any potential solution would not work with 515. I'm open to any ideas that hit the 3 criteria for parity I listed, but this one doesn't quite address EBP, uphunting, or crit randomization (higher guaranteed pure damage).

EBP is a significant issue for bolting at cap, and it's something the warding system bypasses entirely, so by definition it's EBP that contributes to the lack of an achievable 1.0 cast/kill. If it isn't addressed upfront, or a multi-cast is not included in the solution, I don't see the math working out. Currently, for any given creature, it's not uncommon for a kill to require 1-9 bolts over the mean cast/kill due to EBP alone. It's this level of unreliability that makes bolting frustrating and underwhelming post-cap.

Also for any given location, it can easily be randomized down to a non-lethal crit. The raw damage from bolts isn't enough to compensate for what multi-cycle and multi-cast warding spells can achieve on a pure attrition basis, which is what helps them reliably kill even crit resistant creatures.

Just as a matter of flavor, I find the concept of a wizard slinging a storm of simultaneous bolts at a single target to be much more interesting than aiming a single bolt. I want destructive, elemental fury to rain down (a similar effect as with the warding spells and their multi-cycles) rather than a single precision giant rock or lightning bolt. :D

I'm not looking for a single shot CS solution. I'm interested in a 940 limited duration booster with tweaks to Estild's concept that address the 3 criteria I listed.

525 isn't available because Estild has said that it will remain true to its original concept in a usable form if it's ever changed, which I'm fine with.

So let me try this and see if I'm on the right page.

940 - Elemental Overload (Placeholder name)
Duration: 30 Seconds
Span: Refreshable
Availability: Self-Cast

Bolt spells cast while under the effects of this spell will be infused with pure force, causing a matching force bolt to strike the target before the bolt itself. Training in Elemental Mana Control will cause bolts cast while under the effects of Elemental Overload to be more difficult to evade, block or parry. At 200 EMC ranks EBP is nullified completely. Elemental Lore, Air will give a chance for additional strikes. Elemental Lore, Fire will increase AS of bolts cast while under the effects of Elemental Overload. Elemental Lore, Water will increase the duration of the spell. Elemental Lore, Earth will add damage weighting to the bolts.

Keith/Brinret/Eronderl

Keith is correct

-Wyrom, APM

Keith is correct.

-GameMaster Estild

>Elemental Lore, Air will give a chance for additional strikes.

Multi-strike is a necessity even without EBP if there's no AIMing, not a component I'm willing to leave to an air lore proc. One lore, one mana control should be sufficient for the offensive benefit, as 240 is designed for the pure spiritualist with only one lore sphere. It should be fire or earth lore, interchangeably as with 917, as these are the primary lores intended to fulfill an offensive function. Increased raw damage is a necessity, not a bonus, to address crit resistant creatures. Wizards have a lot of crit-reliant spells but nothing to address the pure powered up attrition hole.

I disagree, as pure spiritualists are never forced to split four ways or even three ways within a single sphere. 240 only requires one lore type. By allowing fire/earth to be interchangeable as with 917, it's already reducing the sacrifice significantly. Those who choose to train in lores for pure offense sacrifice all utility, defense, and enchanting pool ability, so there must be something uniquely powerful on an offensive basis to compensate. Otherwise, the power ceiling is too low and we're back to the core problem of forced mediocre results at best. 2 strikes are insufficient, and I expect to not have to train in air lore to reach parity, as that isn't what one has to do for 515, 950 or 917.

<1.) What would make channeling a bolt worth it?
2.) What could make bolting more interesting instead of just casting the same bolt over and over? Using different elements for different effects is something that has a lot of potential (like cold and fire against stone creatures), but as is, it's hardly worth casting 903 to soak a target, just to follow up with 910 when you could just cast 910 twice.>

1. Full AS from defensive stance

2. I would like the lore impacts on bolt spells to be guaranteed but the amount of their effect based in lore.

http://i.imgur.com/lsWPzG9.gif

I dislike the forced split of a single spell into 4 elements, which results in mediocrity for all choices, vs. the pure spiritualists' training choices while having a single sphere. I prefer the 917 model for a 940 booster solution as that is likely the only option that will allow for the power ceiling to reach parity with what all the spiritual pures can achieve.

If the baseline spell functionality with mostly fire/earth lore provides the result that hits the 3 criteria, with air and water providing more minor true bonuses, I'm fine with that too, but I absolutely disagree with either air or water being a requirement for the key elements including simultaneous multi-casts, increased raw damage/DF, or EBP reduction in order to achieve 1 cast, 1 kill.